(no subject)

[cblj_backup]

So, whilst bedridden I have finished watching Downton Abbey.

You know what would have made that easier to find, by the way? If I wasn't searching for Downtown Abbey like an idiot.

I did enjoy it, and I think it's good storytelling, but I didn't enjoy it as much as I think most people might assume I would. Just in case, let's go with a spoiler cut.

I think the thing is that I like the service dynamic, and I love to explore it, but I want it to be voluntary by the subservient members and I want the dominant members of the dynamic to deserve it. The thing that troubles me about Downton Abbey is that most of the staff have little if any choice in the matter -- they're bound by class constraints never to be more than servants, and at least a few of them are cowed and downtrodden by that fact. I like Carson because he chose it after leaving vaudeville, and I loved Gwen because she left it (if she comes back, Jesus, I'm going to throw something; I'll miss her, but I want her to Get Out). I loved the interactions between Matthew and Molesley because Molesley takes pride in his work and Matthew has to learn that and does -- I wish we'd had a lot more of the two of them. There were things I liked about Downton Abbey a lot, and while some of the plots were incredibly predictable I did usually want to know what would happen next.

I love the romance between Bates and Anna, even if I think he's something of a wet blanket. They have a stupid amount of chemistry given he's like twenty years older than she is. I can't wait to see where that one goes.

But Thomas and O'Brien were rather flat, as villains; they mostly made trouble just to make trouble, or out of petty vengeance. I could almost buy it in terms of O'Brien being bitter she's trapped in a servant's life and Thomas lashing out at the repressively heterosexual society he's stuck in, but we don't ever really get to see either of those things. They just meddle and stir shit because they can.

Also I'm not sure if we're meant to find the Crawleys as completely odious as I did. I think we're supposed to like the Earl because he's kind and considerate and forward-thinking, but he's also an idiot enslaved to a feudal -- and futile -- tradition, and he's actively working to enslave the next generation as well. The whole family reminds me of Gormenghast, completely trapped in the most useless of social conventions. There are a couple of conversations where the Earl talks about being the steward of Downton, or not breaking up the legacy, when a few minutes earlier he'd talked about the impracticalities and expenses of the house; every time he mentions the horror of breaking up the estate, I want to shake him and yell DITCH THE MOTHERFUCKER.

The Dowager is an evil woman, and I have absolutely no use for Mary's inability to make decisions or Evelyn's vicious bile. I don't really have a strong opinion about the Countess, but I think she's rather cruel to her children.

The one member of the family I like, aside from Matthew who I can't believe bought into the bullshit, is Sybil -- and even then she has her moments. But I like that she wants to be politically active and that she defies her parents to do it. I hope she elopes with Branson and they go hang out with the Fabian Society in London and meet George Bernard Shaw.

UP NEXT: I have also watched like ten episodes of My Little Pony, and can't stop thinking about Stanislaw Lem's "The Futurological Congress" as I do so.

Comments

[ziemela.livejournal.com]

Ahahahaa. Sam watching My Little Pony may be the best thing I've heard so far today. Judging by the analysis that goes into other stuff you read or watch, I'd love to be a fly on the wall.

Equestria: Sugar-Frosted Dystopia does seem to be a thing in the fandom, so you're not alone there. I've always wanted to know what the actual target audience would think of the periphery demographic's take on MLP. Some variety on "Grownups are weird, man!" I suspect.

[derien.livejournal.com]

I have also watched like ten episodes of My Little Pony, and can't stop thinking about Stanislaw Lem's "The Futurological Congress" as I do so.

Do elaborate upon this, I'd love to hear.

[mad-jaks.livejournal.com]

So would I. Mostly so I can share with my son.

[phantmchic.livejournal.com]

Is that the new My Little Pony? Also, are you not watching Doctor Who this season?

[derien.livejournal.com]

Also I'm not sure if we're meant to find the Crawleys as completely odious as I did. I think we're supposed to like the Earl because he's kind and considerate and forward-thinking, but he's also an idiot enslaved to a feudal -- and futile -- tradition, and he's actively working to enslave the next generation as well.

Knowing nothing about this show, it seems to me that the English tradition is to give characters names that sound like what you're supposed to think of them.

[tzikeh.livejournal.com]

The English tradition is to give characters names that sound like what you're supposed to think of them.

This really isn't the case with The Crawley family. And Downton isn't written like that.

[spiderine.livejournal.com]

I want it to be voluntary by the subservient members and I want the dominant members of the dynamic to deserve it

Wouldn't it be pretty to think so? But that's blinding yourself to the real class dynamic, which is that it's NOT voluntary. The servants have no prospect of upward nobility; they either internalize the "everyone in their place" sociological message or they rebel against it, but even the ones who do it with a smile on their face really don't have much choice in the matter, so they make the best of a bad deal. Plus, considering the horrible conditions that the rest of the poor lived under, they indeed have the best of a bad deal, which is sad. (And resonant to today's economy.)

The upper classes have been trained to believe that the lower classes are "different" and they're suited to domestic servitude, and that the upper classes are taking care of them as part of an extended familias. But that skirts around the fact that if there were better social support for the citizens, the lower classes wouldn't have to live of the noblesse oblige of their "betters" and wouldn't be trapped in the system that requires them to do so. The upper classes can maintain the fiction that they're being beneficent while in fact forcing the lower class into servitude by controlling the entire social safety net. Kinda like slave owners who thought they were benefactors who cared for their slaves from cradle to grave while in fact they were giving the slaves no choice.

Sybil, while sweet, is a slumming bit of fluff who is going to end up in the British Fascist movement because she is ignorant of the class system in which she's been raised.

On the other hand, as for the "steward" thing, it's perfectly logical to bitch about it. It's living in a beautiful old house. You love it and want to care for it, but my gods is it inconvenient and expensive!

[littlered2.livejournal.com]

This is an excellent comment, and I completely agree (well, as far as one can without having actually watched Downton Abbey; I can't really pass judgement on the individual characters). I am very uncomfortable with the way UK culture at the moment seems to be yearning after a vanished world in which the class system was more firmly entrenched and people Knew Their Place - it is very attractive in some ways, but the less palatable aspects shouldn't be ignored.

Sam, there's an article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2011/sep/13/downton-abbey-class-and-distinction) here, published a few days ago, about Downton Abbey and the making of it.

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

Well, that's the point I'm making -- I'm well aware that in this case service is something pressed on the lower classes because they're not socially or economically allowed to be anything higher. I'm saying that the fact of social pressure is what prevents me from enjoying the "service" aspect of this in ways people thought I would, because I don't enjoy seeing people enslaved to social custom especially.

I don't think Sybil's necessarily going to end up a Fascist -- she's interested in suffrage and in democracy. She went to one multiple-party rally and one actual election, and she's seemingly about to be emotionally involved, at least, with a Socialist. I think she has the ability as anyone does to become aware of the class system and work from within to change it. Or at least to escape from it herself by eloping with the chauffeur. :)

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

I rather like Downton Abbey for this--it's so apparent. You watch it and have these reactions, and that's a good thing. It's like watching Mad Men and being appalled at the treatment of anyone who's not a white male.

Was this the show with the dude who had a heart attack in the middle of sex? Is there a servant girl named Daisy? I have watched too many of these things.

[dreamwaffles.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's the one.

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

Yes, Daisy the servant and the guy who died after sex :)

The thing is, the class issues aren't offputting but they're not really something I...needed to see? I'm aware of class divisions and social upheaval in the early 20th century, I didn't need to see them played out. But the point isn't so much that the class divisions are there -- they'd have to be, to be at all accurate -- as that they're what prevented me from enjoying the service aspect more.

[viverl.livejournal.com]

I was so happy to see, that you watched Downton Abbey after I tried to link you to it. It's a pity that you weren't that engrossed by it as I would have thought. But I think your way of service that you like can be very well contrasted by this kind of service. I was always amazed at your characters, that were so happy in serving others. For me the Downton Abbey thing is the more common type.
I really liked Sybil and I thought the slowly evolving love between Mary and Mathew was very nicely done.

[shezan.livejournal.com]

was always amazed at your characters, that were so happy in serving others.

That's one Sam fic I haven't read. Link, please?

[dreamwaffles.livejournal.com]

Whenever I watch Downtown Abbey, I wait for the interactions between Maggie Smith and Harriet Jones, Former Prime Minister, with much greater glee than is probably warranted.

I enjoy it greatly; it's different from other sort of period pieces I've seen before (my mom and sister and I watch A LOT of period movies) and I enjoy seeing the upstairs/downstairs interactions, which I just haven't ever seen much of before.

It's got its problems, but hell, if I minded problems I would never have gotten as far in Stargate Atlantis as I did. XD

Also, apparently the guy who plays Thomas is really a model, rather than an actor. Though he can act too.

[amand-r.livejournal.com]

Whenever I watch Downtown Abbey, I wait for the interactions between Maggie Smith and Harriet Jones, Former Prime Minister, with much greater glee than is probably warranted.

THIS.

[pendrecarc.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity, what's required of the dominant member of the dynamic to "deserve" the service of the subservient member, and what sort of service should be provided in response? Even in fiction, it strikes me as pretty difficult, if not impossible, to sustain that ideal in any framework of service that's supported by a class structure.

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

It kind of cracks me up that people keep thinking you can't have a service dynamic without a class structure imposing it :D You can choose to submit and serve without being told it's your only option, in fact you can do it in a society where equality is considered the norm. That's a much more interesting dynamic to me than people forced into it through social pressure. That's why I didn't enjoy Downton Abbey as much as people thought I would: it's not my context for service kink.

[shezan.livejournal.com]

You must certainly be the first person to quote Stanislaw Lem about My Little Pony.

[shezan.livejournal.com]

Incidentally, Downton Abbey is the soapified version of Julian Fellowes infinitely better earlier screenplay for Robert Altman's SUPERB Gosford Park. If you haven't seen that, GRAB IT.

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

I've seen Gosford Park, but like many people I know spent most of the film trying to understand what people were saying. My god what a lot of mumblers.

[cobweb-diamond.livejournal.com]

The Guardian: in Downton Abbey, the class system exists for the benefit of those at the bottom. For instance, the middle-class cousin, Matthew, has to be told off very sternly by Lord Grantham, played by Hugh Bonneville, for not letting his valet dress him. This was, apparently, the equivalent of chopping his balls off. Matthew duly reforms: "Those cufflinks, Molesley. Good choice!" (http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2011/sep/13/downton-abbey-class-and-distinction)

so, my little pony? is it watchable?

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

I dunno. I mean I don't personally see why MLP has a fandom because it's a fairly simplistic show, sometimes excruciatingly so. The art is fantastic, and the simplicity according to some has its appeal, but I think it's something you'd have to watch for a bit and see for yourself. I find myself reluctant to watch any more simply because I can watch the first five minutes, guess where it's going, and then watch the last two to get the catharsis of resolution.

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I have also watched like ten episodes of My Little Pony, and can't stop thinking about Stanislaw Lem's "The Futurological Congress" as I do so.

WHAT WHAT WHAT. That's, like, one of my favorite books EVAR, and you see a link with it and My Little Pony? TELL ME QUICKLY. (Maybe this will get me to watch MLP for more than five minutes this time?)

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

There's no real direct link except in my head, tbh. But there are certain aspects of the 'verse in which the ponies exist that make me think of it, in a weird way. Like, the seasons? The ponies somehow CAUSE them. There's an entire episode devoted to learning how to work in teams while "clearing away" winter so that spring can happen. The MPL version of puberty is finding out what you were meant to do with your life around what appears to be the age of eight or nine, and then you get your "cutie mark" brand and you're locked in. Up until a few episodes ago (when you actually see someone buy an apple) the entire pony society seemed to be a functional communist state, and all I could think about was how everything looks so bright and clean because all the ponies are on massive doses of Mascon....

[(Anonymous)]

Shhhhhh, Sam, stop wanting me make to write a service!novella.

*stares at sentence and leaves typo in place for lols*

[purplevks.livejournal.com]

accidental anon *facepalm*

[evilstorm.livejournal.com]

Demented MLP mods are all over the web. I did one (http://evilstorm.livejournal.com/339858.html)! :D But for real hysterical cogdis lulz, it's hard to beat My Little (http://technabob.com/blog/2009/08/07/my-little-ponies-from-silent-hill/) Pyramid Head (http://o0neondragon0o.deviantart.com/art/My-Little-Pony-Pyramid-head-43854506). Things of beauty, those.

[brightly-woven.livejournal.com]

I was rooting for Matthew/Sybil to go set up a law firm together and leave the Mamas to run the estate as a hospital or school when Papa dies.

[barefoottomboy.livejournal.com]

Huh, I posted a teal dear Tumblr post about Downton Abbey not five minutes before I read this. (Mine basically boiled down to "Why I don't think Downton Abbey is very good, but why I like it anyway".)

Completely agree with your assessments of Thomas & O'Brien and the class issues. For what it's worth, from having seen the behind-the-scenes stuff and some of the commentary tracks, the team behind the show all seem to subscribe to the "aw, wasn't it lovely of the family to look after all those servants, it's lucky for the lower classes that big houses like that existed, else they'd never get jobs!" view of the period. (I kept yelling "But that doesn't mean the system doesn't suck!" at the screen...)

The more I think about it, the stranger I find it that Gosford Park and Downton Abbey were written by the same person. Maybe Julian Fellowes's attitudes towards the aristocracy have mellowed in the last ten years (or were sharpened by Robert Altman during the writing of Gosford Park?).

[copperbadge.livejournal.com]

the team behind the show all seem to subscribe to the "aw, wasn't it lovely of the family to look after all those servants

Which is kind of interesting because that's not what I took from the show at all -- it seemed to me they were giving the class system a very level, scrutinising look. I found the "steward of the lands" stuff a bit offputting but I thought they actually did show quite a lot of the downside to the rigid class divisions, and the casual way the upper classes sometimes mistreated the servants.

[(Anonymous)]

It's really odd, but I read this post and realised that this is why I have enormous trouble getting my head anywhere near around the concept of a service kink. It's almost more of an anti-kink for me.

I can look at the 'service is not voluntary, it's doing menial work for someone who does not deserve it' and the 'weren't the family good for employing people' because both can be true, even at the same time. If the family were not there, a lot of the servants would be homeless and jobless and leading a fairly awful life. On the other hand, it was a horrible job to have. Service is not so far away in my family that I don't have a slight feeling of horror about it. The lack of choice troubles me too, but not because I thought it should be any different. If they had all wanted to be there I would have found it unrealistic and a bit unwatchable.

Maybe someone can help me with what makes a service kink different to that? At the moment, it feels a bit too... from the perspective of the master. Service is wonderful and equal and voluntary, it's just that they do everything I order them to do. It bothers me when I don't understand things like this!
Elena

[(Anonymous)]

PS
The Earl as steward of the estate even while he finds it hard to manage rang very true for me. I don't think it's an unusual attitude to have for a landowner like that. To ruin the estate for future generations would be unthinkable. The estate, title and family go far beyond individual feelings. He's a link in a chain, individually he doesn't matter. Sense of duty probably plays an enormous part in his life, even as it's a millstone round his neck.